Fiery Giuliani tells Michigan lawmakers election stolen, offers no credible evidence

Relying on conspiracies, innuendo and misinformation, Trump campaign attorney Rudy Giuliani implored Michigan lawmakers on Wednesday to take steps that would deliver the state's 16 electoral votes to President Donald Trump. 

During an unorthodox hearing of the House Oversight Committee, Chairman Matt Hall, R-Emmett Township, essentially ceded control to Giuliani. Embodying his former role as prosecutor, Giuliani spent more than three hours asking questions of witnesses who accompanied him to the hearing as a means to present what the Trump campaign deems to be evidence of fraud. 

"This is a swindle, it's a con job, it's the theft of an election," Giuliani said. 

"They stole the election." 

The hearing started shortly after 6 p.m. Before and during the hearing, protestors and counter-protestors chanted outside the Lansing building where the meeting took place. Crowds, including many people not wearing masks, stood outside and tried to get in for the meeting. 

When it ended shortly after 10:30 p.m., the testimony did not show any evidence of widespread fraud.

As expected, Democrats on the committee were not receptive to Giuliani's arguments. But several Republicans also pointed to issues in Giuliani's arguments. 

Rep. Steve Johnson, R-Wayland, said he thought there were problems in Detroit and there may be issues with vote-counting machines. But he questioned why the Trump campaign did not request a recount that may have remedied some of these concerns. 

"Instead, what we hear is a lot of talk, a lot of thoughts, a lot of allegations. But we had one opportunity to actually do this, and the Trump campaign did not make that request. 

Rep. Beau LaFave, R-Iron Mountain, asked what Giuliani and fellow Trump campaign attorney Jenna Ellis wanted of lawmakers. He asked whether they wanted him and other lawmakers "to take evidence and put my name to it and say this is definitely what happened?" 

"You want us to make the decision?" LaFave asked. 

While Giuliani and Ellis sidestepped his question, saying they wanted lawmakers to "take back their power," what they discussed amounted to requesting that lawmakers review allegations before intervening in the results of the Michigan election. 

President-elect Joe Biden won Michigan by approximately 154,000 votes, according to Republican and Democratic elections officials in the state, certified results from all 83 Michigan counties and the Michigan Board of State Canvassers. 

Despite a lack of concrete evidence, Trump supporters in Michigan and across the country remain skeptical of election results as the president continues to tout incorrect theories that the election was stolen.

The first witness, Jessy Jacob, spoke at length with Giuliani. Among several other allegations, she said she was instructed to improperly backdate ballots at the TCF Center, the absentee ballot counting center in Detroit. In Michigan, only ballots received by 8 p.m. on Election Day are valid.

Jacob also said she worked at a satellite voting location in Detroit. During her time there, she said she was told not to ask voters for photo identification, but she said she asked anyway. 

While Michigan law says voters need photo ID, they are also allowed to sign an affidavit and vote without one. 

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Jacob made a similar allegation in a lawsuit recently dismissed by a Wayne County Circuit Court judge. Chris Thomas, a longtime former elections administrator under Republican and Democratic secretaries of state in Michigan, assisted with running the Detroit election and previously responded to Jacob's allegation. He said in an affidavit that clerical errors at some satellite offices led to a problem with the date included in the online system for some ballots. He said these ballots were physically stamped with the date they were received, and none were received after polls closed on Election Day. 

Witness Melissa Carone said she was a contract worker for Dominion Voting System. She testified that at least 30,000 ballots were counted multiple times. 

There's no evidence this is accurate, and this level of misconduct would be noted in poll books or through the routine canvass required after every election.  

Both Jacob and Carone filed affidavits in a lawsuit that was ultimately dismissed by Wayne County Circuit Court Judge Timothy Kenny. Kenny called the lawsuit's interpretation of events at the TCF Center "incorrect and not credible."

Lawmakers largely sat back and watched. At times, several Democrats on the committee tried to interject. Once, Giuliani tried to object; there's no such procedural avenue afforded during a legislative hearing. 

Before Giuliani began, state Rep. Darrin Camilleri, D-Brownstown, tried to require that Giuliani and Ellis be sworn in. Hall overruled Camilleri, saying it was highly unusual to require sworn testimony. Even after this statement, Giuliani clarified several times that he was not speaking under oath before proceeding.

Later, Camilleri tried to ask Giuliani a question, but Hall wouldn't let him.

"This is not Four Seasons Landscaping, this is the Michigan State Legislature," Camilleri said, referencing a peculiar Giuliani news conference recently held in Pennsylvania. 

On Tuesday, U.S. Attorney General William Barr said his department had not found any evidence of fraud or misconduct that would change the outcome of the election.

Camilleri noted this during the hearing before asking Giuliani about a New York Times report indicating Giuliani and Trump have discussed a possible pardon. Giuliani later denied the report on Twitter, but became very upset when asked about it by Camilleri. 

Giuliani asked that Camilleri "be disciplined for that" and accused him of "defamation of my character" but did not answer the question.

Monica Palmer, the head of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers, was the last of Giuliani's witnesses. Palmer initially voted against certifying Wayne County results. She ultimately voted in favor of certification, but has since filed an affidavit saying she'd like to rescind her vote, something that isn't possible.

While she said the board should have been allowed more time to review questions about precincts in Detroit, she did not speak to any election fraud. She asked lawmakers to review how absentee ballots are processed and the authority that county canvassing boards have to request audits or other reviews. 

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Neither Giuliani nor anyone with the Trump campaign has provided any evidence of voter fraud to the Office of Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel, the state law enforcement agency that can and does investigate such claims, a Nessel spokesman said. 

While the House committee has the authority to review and support legislation, it does not have the power to mandate an audit, review, recount or any similar measure that could affect vote tallies from Detroit or anywhere else in Michigan. 

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Hall opened the hearing by saying Giuliani's appearance offered the chance to hear directly from the Trump campaign about allegations of fraud in Michigan. 

"Citizens have serious concerns about the election in Michigan ... elections must be trustworthy and accurate," Hall said. 

"Citizens become frustrated and demand answers when a large number of precinct tabulations don't reconcile ... or when an independent audit is not performed."

Just hours before the hearing, Trump released a 46-minute video on his Facebook page where he repeated numerous false statements about Michigan's elections process. That included wrongly saying Michigan instituted universal mail-in voting "right in the middle of an election year."  Republican and Democratic voters overwhelmingly approved a change to the state constitution that expanded absentee voting in 2018. 

Before the hearing, Michigan Republican Party Chairwoman Laura Cox met with Giuliani on a Zoom call for Republicans in the state. Giuliani repeated some of the president's allegations during the call, with Cox pledging to continue to work to help Trump in the state. 

Even before the hearing, Democrats blasted the need for the meeting, saying lawmakers should be spending time focusing on COVID-19 response. 

"Every day, I have constituents call and email my office because they have not received unemployment benefits, " Rep. Cynthia Johnson, D-Detroit, said in an emailed statement. 

"My friends and neighbors are sick and dying from COVID-19. Michiganders are tired, hungry and homeless. In short, no. I do not believe this hearing is worthwhile." 

Rep. David LaGrand, D-Grand Rapids, said before the hearing any chance to earnestly discuss strengthening the electoral process can be beneficial. But he questioned whether a conversation with Giuliani would accomplish legitimate legislative goals. 

"That said, sometimes paranoia and conspiracy theories have to be aired in public for people to be able to assess them properly," LaGrand said. 

When the hearing was announced, a Facebook post from Michigan House Republicans said "the testimony is not about changing the results of the now-certified election. It’s about doing our due diligence and listening to people who have concerns about the way our election was conducted." 

But Ellis called on lawmakers to ignore the will of Michigan voters and step in and take some action that would award electoral votes to Trump. 

This almost assuredly will not happen. Lawmakers have no authority under Michigan law to appoint delegates to the Electoral College; both parties already chose their slates earlier in the year, and Democratic electors are bound by state law to vote for Biden. 

Senate Minority Leader Mike Shirkey, R-Clarklake, and House Speaker Lee Chatfield, R-Levering, have already said they have no plans to interfere with the electoral process. They reiterated these comments after a White House meeting with Trump, where they reportedly discussed Michigan election law and COVID-19 relief. 

Any attempt by the Legislature to act would require a change in law. Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, a Democrat, would not sign a bill giving the Legislature authority to appoint a new slate of electors. In addition to likely pushback from leadership, any action taken by a handful of state lawmakers to try to appoint Trump-backed delegates without a law change would likely result in litigation. 

Giuliani and other Trump attorneys have met with lawmakers in other swing states, including Arizona and Pennsylvania. During these meetings, at times held at hotels and not in legislative committee rooms, Giuliani and other Trump associates have relied on misleading and inaccurate information in an effort to get lawmakers to take action. 

None of these hearings have resulted in any legislative action to date.

On Dec. 14, Democratic delegates to the Electoral College will cast the state's 16 votes for Biden. He will assume the presidency in January. 

Christian Martinez of the Lansing State Journal contributed to this story.

Contact Dave Boucher: dboucher@freepress.com or 313-938-4591. Follow him on Twitter @Dave_Boucher1.